tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post1293771475767736793..comments2024-03-16T05:19:07.061-04:00Comments on Retirement Blues: Deep Stupid #12Jazzbumpahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07337490817307473659noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-47383554784530825192009-11-23T17:09:03.021-05:002009-11-23T17:09:03.021-05:00PJB -
Your points are well taken. But this is no...PJB -<br /><br />Your points are well taken. But this is not anything along the lines of debate. This is not a point-counterpoint where either side has facts pro and con to their position. Rather, this is the unmasking of BIG, HAIRY LIES.<br /><br />My concept of what DEEP STUPID means to me has been evolving since I stole the idea from Urbino at Hungry Hungry Hippos.<br /><br />Currently, it is as follows.<br /><br />A logically indefensible position, contrary to reality, is put forth as truth. The position is supported by some combination of - cherry-picked information, <br />- distortions, <br />- the ridicule of quotes - and especially misquotes - taken out of context, <br />- invalidly drawn conclusions,<br />- various common logical falacies,<br />- and shit that is simply made up. <br /><br />I doubt that this list is exhaustive.<br /><br />Some of their other tricks are (as you pointed out) mindless repetition, and (my favorite) changing the subject.<br /><br />And all of this works with the target audience because hey have no critical thinking skills. Which is why right wingers are against education.<br /><br />The thing that I wonder about is this: are these people genuinely this stupid, or are they so ethically bankrupt that truth and lies literally mean nothing to them? I think there are a few in each camp.<br /><br />Cheers!<br />JzBJazzbumpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07337490817307473659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-45503493827506762052009-11-23T02:36:52.279-05:002009-11-23T02:36:52.279-05:00I am not going to step into the thick of the discu...I am <i>not</i> going to step into the thick of the discussion between J. and JzB., because I am late to the party and don't know the background there, as interesting as the conversation seems.<br /><br />What I will say, not to interrupt your back & forth is that JzB has made me think about Deep Stupidity. I can't claim to have gotten too far in that process, but what I do have is this:<br />Deep Stupid means, at least in part, doing a lousy job of arguing one' s own side, setting out one's assertions in a coherent and logical manner and backing them up with reasonable evidence. Same thing goes for a court case, an editorial, etc.<br /><br />I had, at one time, a shelf of Debate trophies, and at least half were from debates where my/my team's position were chosen by the flip of a coin. To "win" the debate we had to have better logic/evidence than the other team. To win a tournament consisting of many debates, we had to be able to debate either side convincingly, NO MATTER where our own personal opinions fell. Not an easy thing to learn to do, and before getting decent at it, I failed many times to present something good enough to trounce the other team.<br /><br />Point is this: as much as I may agree/disagree with what someone says, I think it's a damn shame when someone who presumably thinks/writes for the public to make a living, and that person<br />can't state their OWN case--even if I mostly agree with their conclusions.That to me is Deep Stupid. Case in point: Sarah Palin's book and blog are long on folksy nuggets of home-brewed wisdom, but I cannot find the logic. Where is she starting from, what is she proposing--in some doable, concrete steps--that should be done? I have had the same problem with some of Al Gore's environmental lit, as well, and much of the rhetoric about healthcare (my own field, more or less)coming from both Reps and Dems. I admire anyone who can craft a nice resounding speech or a piece of prose, sure, but it's much more convincing when someone at least pre-empts what the other side will likely say/argue and deals with those issues up front.<br /><br />Where the DEEPNESS meets the STOOPIDNESS is in just repeating the same things over and over, and pretending that the other side hasn't responded. Then, it's like one side yelling at the other in Russian and their counterparts are screaming in Swahili. Not a lot of good comes out of it.<br /><br />That's my two Euros and a couple shillings for now. I'll keep pondering, ok?<br /><br />Be well.PJB-Chicagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18442942109541224252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-20782698236670761792009-11-22T12:32:09.869-05:002009-11-22T12:32:09.869-05:00It's a subtler form of Goldbergism, jz-b, thou...It's a subtler form of Goldbergism, jz-b, though still about, like, the Divine right of Queens, etc., and dare we say capitalism, though with a bit of PC Trotskyism (let's not forget like Lieberman, or Feinstein, or Raumie Emmanuel and Co's support for the IWE). <br /><br />And I'm not really bitter, tho' do object to putative or soi-disant leftists who mistake control freak bureaucrats, academic hacks, and J-Edgar wannabes ( like those of EotAW, or Berubay, KOS, unfogged, et al) for the real Gauche.<br /><br />And yes, I could show you where they draw wild conclusions from cherry picked historical information, even if their results are not quite as extreme as Goldberg's. I don't think Goldberg, however ludicrous (Il Duce was no liberal, be sure of dat--nor were the brownshirts) belongs to GOP, at least officially. Some of the libertarians like Ms Palin--pro- oil, NRA, Alaska, pro-booze/gambling/ho's, wolf nipple chips, etc.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-20927305442723668282009-11-22T12:23:08.908-05:002009-11-22T12:23:08.908-05:00J -
Oh, surely, my friend, you recognize sarcasm ...J -<br /><br />Oh, surely, my friend, you recognize sarcasm when you see it!<br /><br />One emerging point that Jonah, here, and Michelle Malkin, in an earlier DEEP STUPID entry, illustrated is that anyone who does not share extremist movement conservatism beliefs is at least librull, and possibly radically librull. <br /><br />Such is their parallax view.<br /><br />I haven't noticed anything along the lines of liberal libertarianism at EotAW. And comparing them to Johah-like idiocy is unsupportable. Do they ridicule quotes out of context? Do they draw wild conclusions from cherry picked information? Do they miss obvious points? Do they make shit up? Really, you let your bitterness color your perspective to rather a distressing degree.<br /><br />My take on DEEP STUPID is to go after pronouncements that are so wildly divergent from reality, and characterized by the Jonah qualities listed above, that I can't keep myself from piling on the ridicule. If you think there is room for that with Gore, or anyone else on the left, have at it. I do not own a monopoly on the franchise. But please remain true to the concept.<br /><br />Cheers!<br />JzBJazzbumpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07337490817307473659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-716374688347940642009-11-22T11:40:22.830-05:002009-11-22T11:40:22.830-05:00Slate and the Fray are not entirely "liberal ...Slate and the Fray are not entirely "liberal fascist" land, jz-b--really, I would say yr pals at EotAW are closer to Goldbergism. Which is to say, there are only slight differences between neo-liberals, and liberal libertarians...sort of arguments about tax policies, usually<br /><br />For that matter, a Hitchens, or Fred Kaplan or other slatesters are not Goldbergs, jz-b. The Fraysters do not love Hitchens (or say Saletan); his posts are usually met with scorn, rather than approval. <br /><br />I agree that Goldberg is Deep Stupid, sort of the Aynnie Rand du jour, but then the GOP and libertarians (or whatever Jonah izz) do not have a monopoly on Deep stupidity--e.g. consider Al Gore as Deep stupid material for DemoCoJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.com