tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post8362465460249639154..comments2024-03-16T05:19:07.061-04:00Comments on Retirement Blues: The Brute Economics of SlaveryJazzbumpahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07337490817307473659noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-43768302956526077352022-09-30T13:18:29.993-04:002022-09-30T13:18:29.993-04:00kd 12
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Thanks for the additional detail.
Cheer...loquat -<br /><br />Thanks for the additional detail.<br /><br />Cheers!<br />JzBJazzbumpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07337490817307473659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-56999807467037340902011-12-04T11:27:13.867-05:002011-12-04T11:27:13.867-05:00According to Wikipedia, Romans could not in fact s...According to Wikipedia, Romans could not in fact sell themselves into slavery due to the potential for fraud, but they could sell their children. <br /><br />Ancient Israelites could sell themselves into slavery, generally as a means of discharging debt though people in extreme poverty might sell themselves as well to avoid starvation. Of course, in these cases it wasn't meant to be slavery in perpetuity as all such slaves were supposed to be freed when the next jubilee year rolled around.Loquatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-3014460697097428352011-11-30T21:14:02.318-05:002011-11-30T21:14:02.318-05:00Dale -
This was a meaty topic, and I wanted to be...Dale -<br /><br />This was a meaty topic, and I wanted to be thorough. There isn't any fluff, and I wasn't prolix.<br /><br />I guess we're disagreeing about vocabulary again. <br /><br />I can't say I had any specific awareness of Romans selling themselves into slavery. (What would they do with the proceeds?) It doesn't surprise me though, and I talked about the security and stability the slave/serf gets from the master. It beats than being flayed alive by barbarians.<br /><br />I agree with you that the payroll tax holiday is one of the worst ideas ever. But you are severely over-reacting with your analogy.<br /><br />Cheers!<br />JzBJazzbumpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07337490817307473659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-31346492979513695252011-11-30T20:21:10.526-05:002011-11-30T20:21:10.526-05:00long winded eh?
well, April to December is kind...long winded eh? <br /><br />well, April to December is kind of traditional.<br /><br />you may not have known that Romans sold themselves into slavery.<br /><br />kind of like Americans who are willing to give up social security in return for a "tax holiday."<br /><br />coberlyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-91314237125867158342011-04-08T04:40:08.776-04:002011-04-08T04:40:08.776-04:00Hi, Jazz. Interesting topic.
Under Diocletian, as ...Hi, Jazz. Interesting topic.<br />Under Diocletian, as I recall, came a law that sons had to take up the same work as fathers. The law was intended to assure continuity and stability of supply. But it ended up binding people to tasks in a way that contributed to serfdom.<br /><br />Impressions:<br />1. The rise of <i>serfdom</i>, going in to the dark age, was comparable to trends we see today.<br />2. The rise of <i>feudalism</i>, coming out of the dark age, was the beginning of a re-establishment of order. The long, slow drift back toward a money economy began not long after.<br /><br />"The bottom line is that serfdom will dominate whenever the profit (revenues less costs) of keeping a serf is greater than that of hiring a free laborer."<br />Not so sure. Implicit in your statement is something I agree with absolutely: everything moves toward profit. But late in the cycle of civilization, with wealth highly concentrated, the notion of profit itself may take on new meaning.<br /><br />At BadTux you commented: "This is where we've been heading since 1980."<br />I like to emphasize that the conditions we have come to over the past 30 years are (as you suggest) the result of <i>policy</i>. But the most vocal opponents of current conditions don't seem to notice.<br /><br />ArtSThe Arthurianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16501331051089400601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-38918402831102941062011-04-06T01:17:05.541-04:002011-04-06T01:17:05.541-04:00[continued... darn blogger limits!]
Of course, th...[continued... darn blogger limits!]<br /><br />Of course, there was always the option of setting out for the frontier then, if you managed to accumulate sufficient assets to make the journey rather than die along the way. The frontier served as a safety valve to the abuses of the Gilded Age in the North. It was the closing of the frontier, more than anything else, which led to the labor unrest at the end of the 19th century that led to the first Progressive era in American politics...<br /><br />But that was then. Today, we have the most efficient police state in the history of the planet here in the United States. In the 19th century, a labor organizer could go into a factory and organize without the knowledge of the factory owners. Today, he would be required to submit his social security number and date of birth, and a credit report and background check would quickly reveal that he was a union organizer and he would never make it to the factory floor. In the 19th century, an average person could participate in a labor strike without fear of identification or repercussions, if you said your name was Jebediah Ezekial, who was to say different? Today you are required to carry your national ID card ("driver's license") which is photographic evidence of your identity, and are fingerprinted, processed, put into the computer, and forever marked by anybody who does a background check as an "agitator" and thus someone not to hire. The power of computers has changed the equation forever... and thus far, it has mostly been in the favor of the employers, who now find ways to track us and punish us for "undesirable" behavior that their predecessors in the first Gilded Age could only dream of. For now.<br /><br />- Badtux the Historical PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4290163255778893789.post-90020263183025507532011-04-06T01:15:35.783-04:002011-04-06T01:15:35.783-04:00One of the things that the apologists for slavery ...One of the things that the apologists for slavery in the 1850's were fond of pointing out is that conditions for "free" laborers in the factories of the North were even more horrific than conditions for slaves in the South. Slaves were a valuable commodity and had to be treated that way, with housing and working conditions that at least kept them healthy, albeit probably not comfortable. The industrialists of the North, on the other hand, viewed their workers as replaceable machines. There were always more Eastern Europeans debarking at Ellis Island to be pressed into service, so worker safety was not of concern -- if a worker became injured, there was always another Bohunk to take his place. And what of the discarded worker? Not a concern of the industrialists. Let him go to the poor houses or die of "natural causes" (starvation is natural, right?). <br /><br />Of course, the fact that the system in the North in the 1850's was horrific did not make the system of slavery in the South any less horrific, but does exemplify your point about labor shortages making outright slavery (or serfdom - slavery lite) the preferable system. You likely have never worked outdoors in the South in the summertime. I have. It is brutal. It is not something you do voluntarily. Free laborers typically didn't hang around the South long before heading West or North to get to a more agreeable clime. Those who say slavery would have died out naturally disregard that fact. The sharecropping system which replaced slavery after the Civil War and lasted until WWII was far less profitable, because to get people to stay on the lands, the plantation owners had to give them a far larger share of their output than was typical prior to the Civil War, it was serfdom, but a somewhat less restrictive serfdom than the Eastern European variant. But still, WWII utterly destroyed that system because once the majority of the serfs had gone to Detroit or Los Angeles to work in the war factories, they had absolutely no inclination to go back home again. <br /><br />By contrast, the majority of immigrants entered in the North, and thus there was an ever-replenishing supply of factory workers to be used, abused, and discarded. Those who picture an idyllic America in the mid-19th century seem to disregard this Hobbesian reality of life in that era being nasty, brutish, and short for far too many, regardless of which system you were entwined within.BadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.com